New FM Live 1.2 / Fm2010 Tactic system

NCFCRossky: I've just been reading through the FM Live forum and see 1.2 is in the making. One feature is...

- A new tactical system designed in collaboration with Richard Claydon and Gareth Millward, authors of 'Tactical Theorems & Frameworks'. - The user is asked to make various selections about their formation, style of play, required match strategy and the system then automatically sets up the underlying team and player instructions in accordance with the respected Tactical Theorems & Frameworks research. The intention is to help the user build a balanced tactic (for example with two central midfielders, it is generally desirable to have one instructed to play more defensively than the other) while helping to educate them about the tactics system. This is the first phase in some improvements to the tactical system - the second phase will be changes to the controls available on the tactics pages to make them fit closer with the above system. For now the wizard creates a tactic which can be edited in the usual way according to the user's skills.

Is this the start of something that we could see in FM 2010?

irt3hown (забанен): Waste of time, they need to fix the underlying flaws before working on a shiny new front end for creating tactics, this is just a façade to appease the people who are unhappy about what the game has become.

Also, I don't think wwfan and company can any longer deny that they are directly involved in the development of the game. That means from now on Football Manager is going to be modelled around the views of people that think you need a phd in the match engine to have any form of self-derived success, and if you don't have time to spend hours analysing the ai model you will be forced to use in game wizards or follow 50 page user guides just to give you a slim chance of competing. What's the bet that even after this new wizard is created (which I presume will just be a graphical version of the TT&F spreadsheet) the same problems still persist? The same inbalances and match engine flaws and anomalies will still dog the game, because even following the advice of TT&F it doesn't represent a realistic management experience at the moment.

This, in my opinion, is the final nail in the coffin for FM. Instead of consulting UI and usability experts for the actual front end and real tactical experts for the match engine, they are consulting these pseudo-scientific frauds who want to mould FM into their own fetishistic tactic simulator. Do you not wonder why the people that are involved in TT&F are never complaining about the match engine but always sticking up for it, without fail, whatever the argument against it? Despite it's obvious flaws? This is because they are actually creating it to their own tastes and specifications and anyone who opposes this tide of change simply "doesn't understand football".

I'm not being fooled by these gimmicks and neither should you, don't just sit back and watch them destroy the game.

swash: For FM08 there was the opportunity for the more casual gamer to enjoy the game as they could come up with what wwfan dubbed crazy arrow tactics which exploited the weaknesses in the match engine, not to everyone's tastes obviously, but it didn't stop other people such as wwfan himself from succeeding with his own much more methodical approach.

I remember wwfan popping up on the threads of the crazy arrow tactics basically demeaning any achievements with these tactics almost as if it was cheating and then later gleefully saying that they wouldn't work next time round as he had single handedly persuaded SI to drop the crazy arrows.

I can't understand this at all as wwfan had a game which he could enjoy in his own way but for some reason seems hellbent on stopping "the dark side" in enjoying the game in their own way.

For some reason SI have jumped in line behind wwfan and now even given him a role in FM Live.

This almost smacks of meglomania on wwfan's part, in a my way or the highway type of way.

Just to clarify my own situation, I am not struggling with FM09, I am on the verge of back to back promotions with Boston, but now the game feels increasingly like a chore and not just the fun and relaxation it used to be.

Surely the objective for SI should be to make the game enjoyable for the widest spectrum of users, not just one particular group

wwfan: Totally ridiculous. All Millie and I do is try to help people understand the way the game is developing be explaining how sliders interact, the methodology of which has been embraced by SI, and all of a sudden we are the villains. We have no influence on how the ME is built. All we have done is translate sliders into English. All we are now doing is assisting that translation become part of the game because, guess what, many people find the sliders hard to understand.

For Pete's sake, people have been crying out for an easier to understand tactical system for years, and when the chance of one appearing suddenly raises its head, it is part of a Machiavellian plot to stop casual gamers from enjoying FM. Grow up, why don't you!

How about I ask Paul to allow for a user tactic that ensures you win 75% of your games? Just enough anxiety to make the season exciting but a guaranteed trophy at the end. Would that rock your boat? I've quite honestly had enough of this idiocy. All we have ever tried to do is help people play FM, and we get nothing but insults and abuse from a certain section of the community. If you don't like, or can't, play FM, or it offends your sensibilities, buy a different management simulation and stop bloody complaining!

swash: Touched a nerve I see.

OK let me clear something up, yes historically you and Millie have been a tremendous asset to the game and I take my hat off to all the effort that you have put into that, certainly up to FM08 whilst your systems have never been to my taste I still admired the work you put into the game.

Towards the end of FM08 however whilst FM09 was in development, your persona seemed to change, and you actually seemed to openly criticise people whose approach seemed to in some way offend you, it was as if you resented the fact that they could match your achievements with far far less effort.

At that stage however there was no need for the different groups to have any issues which each other as they could both get on with playing the game in their own way.

I find your quote "we have no influence on how the ME is built" impossible to believe. If I could be bothered to search I'm sure I could find posts by you where you stated that SI had finally agreed with your suggestion that the crazy arrows should be removed from the game!

My complaint is not that the tactical system is hard to understand, but that by implementing your proposals they have now limited the ways in which you can successfully approach the game.

Your last paragraph is frankly pathetic, it's the equivalent to me calling you a fanboy, every time someone complains about the game you and your like always resort to the accusation that the person complaining wants to win their games all the time, as I think Garry has spent about the last 3 years trying to drum into you, this is patently not the case, what we want is to be able to achieve a realistic result for the season as a whole in a way that doesn't involve having to spend hours on end with banks of tactics to achieve it.

As for your last line, I thought this was called a discussion board, not a discuss things that you like board.

With the benefit of hindsight I maybe should not have made my previous post so personal to you, but it is my impression that you have been heavily involved in the direction the game is moving.

wwfan: Equally rubbish. I have never sold anything I write as a super-tactic, nor am I offended if people can design tactics that are better than mine. If I were trying to develop a super tactic, do you not think I might have released one by now? What I am offended by is people who disparage the huge amount of effort Millie and I put into helping people as being manipulative or egotistical. I've been incredibly patient and tolerant with people who basically openly insult me and repeatedly try to help them. We put up with it without much of a murmur. These posts, however, have gone a step too far.

Let me repeat one last time. SI's intention is to make the best football management simulator on the market. If some of my ideas and texts help this, then I have no issue of their being used. However, this is reflective of their desire, not directive. If you do not understand this, then there is no point in conversing with you any further.

If you actually read my last paragraph, you'd see it stated that people want to win a certain percentage of their games without much effort, not every game. However, the 'we don't want to win every game, that would be ridiculous, oh, ha , ah isn't he silly' is a nice, lazy cop out. You either want to win trophies without having to think very hard, which is fine, but you should buy a different game, or you want to better understand the sliders (and thus tactics) so the game is more enjoyable, which means you should wait and see if our efforts and helping this happen are useful before slagging them off. Which one is it, or have I missed the crux of your argument?

Hammer1000: Good post swash mate.

I can't get away with intelligent posts anymore, because anyone who does'nt agree just tends to go off on a tirade about how the game does'nt cheat, when i have'nt even mentioned the word?

Then when i try to get a discussion going about the path that FM looks to be taking and how it is likely to alienate a large % of FM'ers, that is backed up with evidence from this very Community, the topic is closed without compromise and by who?

Rich - Surely by not allowing it to be discussed this will only go to further alienate even more FM'ers?

As swash says mate, you continuously choose to pigeonhole me as one of those people who simply want to win all their games, when it could not be further from the truth. How can we hold an intelligent discussion if you cannot/will not accept this first?

I've enjoyed chatting to PaulC in the past week or so, for all i know he may still think i'm a pratt or a pain in the ass, but there has not been a single crossed word and the guy appears to genuinely care about the game and not just the money its making him.

I'll have to hope that this new Wizard will be a good thing and that it will help me enjoy FM2010, my only real concern is that its based on TT&F which i've never really understood or managed to get any team playing well when i've used it and like swash said really, its boring.

swash: wwfan

OK maybe I should go and play another game, but that's a bit harsh when I've enjoyed this one for so many years.

Do I want to win trophies with the mimimum of effort, no not really, I'm probably the least trophy hunting manager around as I nearly always play the game down in the lower leagues.

Maybe the problem is that SI have stopped making a game and now make a simulator, but are they sure that a sufficient chunk of their buyers are ready to head off in this direction.After all real life football management is about as stressful a job as there is out there, but the guys that do it, particularly at the top level are rewarded incredibly well for the heart attack risk that comes with the job!

My beef is simply that whether I win lose or draw a game I don't want to feel that I am doing a second job to achieve whatever success I may or may not achieve.

I am absolutely convinced that FM09 is the least accessible ever for newcomers, if I was 16 again and buying my first version of the game, I would imagine that the disc would be gathering dust at the back of a cupboard by now and that FM10 would not be on my Christmas list.

irt3hown: Succinctly put. Having said that it's not the inaccessibility to newcomers that is the biggest concern, it's the alienation of the old school die-hards that have been with the game for many years, that is what will have the most telling impact. This is the problem when there is no competition at all, it was the same with Pro Evolution Soccer, for years they were the dominant force in terms of playability but they began to deviate from what made the game great and eventually, somehow, FIFA has now overtaken it in terms of being the better game. The same *could*, as crazy as it sounds, happen with Championship Manager and FM.

Hammer1000: The thing that is being massively overlooked here is TIME

I actually think that the idea of watching games in their entirety and tweaking tactics to suit IS realistic and for anyone that has the time to play FM 24/7 or basically as a full time job its an absolutely brilliant idea.

The problem is, i'd hazard a guess that at least 95% of FM'ers actually have a life or a job and/or family that restricts this time to no more than a few hours a day.

Something to add to the equation is what wwfan has said before about using tactic sets and that after some early effort you will be able to know when to make the correct tweaks at the correct time and as such have just as much success as you would using a single plug and play tactic.

So basically what he's saying is, you can get exactly the same outcome, but its just going to take you a lot more time, now correct me if i'm wrong, but how on Earth can that be considered a good thing, or entice more people to play the game?

Please feel free to point out any obvious flaws that my statement contains?

Stejo: I've been playing FM for the past decade or so, I don't usually post in these forums but I think it's time to chime in. FM 2009 is extremely hard and not user friendly. It's the first time that I don't enjoy the game at all. I can't get myself to play it, I keep starting new games, play them for half a season or so and abandon them; let a week pass, start a new one only to get frustrated again.

And it's not like I don't enjoy challenges, I love them actually. This installment tho makes me feel handicapped. The AI can do everything right and I just struggle to cope against average sides and keep getting steamrolled against equal or slightly better opponents. I've read extensively and repeatedly pretty much everything on all forums about the various tactical approaches, I'm an avid fan of the game with a pretty good understanding of real life tactics, I watched countless full matches ingame, still can't do it. The mentality sliders and the way they interact with each other are horribly counter-intuitive, the way they synergize with the rest of the instructions is even worse. The way the AI changes formation without notice and before you can react to it they already score is gutting.

The way the game evolved to a constant switch of tactics during the game calls for a new approach to the user gui. The user should be given either a vast amount of preset tactics or a tactical wizard that creates tactics of EQUAL quality to the ones used by the AI. Maybe an Assistant Manager of kinds that is equally smart with the AI managers and suggests the best course of action with an option to disable his input for purists. And definitely a feature to pause action soon as the AI changes tactics/formation, notify you of what has changed and let you pick how to counter by switching your own tactics. Just my 0.02$.

irt3hown: Stejo, thanks for chiming in, it was well worth it. I hope you are just one of many "lurkers" that will add their support to the cause when the final battle begins. I'm not sure when it's going to be but there will be a point where people finally decide to challenge the status quo and try to alter the direction the game is taking. I think you are absolutely spot on in your thesis regarding the handicapping of human managers to enhance the difficulty factor. This is not even debated by the so called experts, because the default tactics in the game are shockingly flawed.

The assistant manager input has been improved lately but in the context of a game which requires such studious analysis of the match engine to keep pace with the constantly changing AI behaviour, it really needs to be re-architected from the ground up. I think this could be another alternative to incorporating something like difficulty levels, but I still think there should be some ability for the user to control how sophisticated the opposition manager AI they want to play against is, just like in a shoot-em-up the user should be able to choose between shooting a bunch of clueless zombies for nothing more than fun, or fight against intelligent enemies which can read your style of play and adapt accordingly.

I'm thinking of starting a petition which basically lays out in clear terms, that anyone who signs it will refuse to buy another copy of Football Manager until these issues are addressed.

Troels Jensen: I'm beginning to think you're a troll just making a bad joke. Surely you cannot be serious? Did you ever stop to think that this game is a simulation? It's supposed to be as close to real life as possible. I'm pretty sure Sir Alex pays attention to the match details all the time - at least I've never seen him tell the players to "do it for the fans" and then proceed backstage to get a warm cup of tea, leaving the rest to the players.

The game has difficulty levels in a way - pick a superior team, and you'll probably have an easier time than if you choose to play with relegation candidates.

'when the final battle begins...' that is probably the most pathetic yet most hilarious line I've ever read in this forum.

Good luck with your petition.

swash: Troels, read Hammer 1000's post about TIME.

Of course you are right about SAF (although maybe he's not a good example after their last 2 results,lol)

Put if you want to take FM as a simulation to the extreme, then you would have to watch every game on full!

SAF is a full time football manager, as Hammer says most of us have jobs, families etc and just don't have to the time to play in such detail.

What is causing this big divide is that in FM08 and its predecessors both groups could succeed, the casual gamer who wanted to plug in and play with 1 tactic or the more in depth players.

Now SI seem to be bending over backwards to please the in depth boys and basically stick two fingers up at the casual player.

Such casual players who have been playing the game for years are in my opinion perfectly entitled to get annoyed when they are told that if you don't like it, go away and play something else.

It feels like OUR game has been taken away to keep another group of players happy, despite the fact that previous incarnations proved that the game could keep both groups happy.

Imagine how wwfan would feel if the game had gone the other way and if only exploitative tactics now worked, and you couldn't succeed with carefully made well structured tactics.

Of course he could stop playing, he might choose to disappear quietly, but in the reverse situation that currently exists, some of us are trying to save the game that we love, the purpose of the posts is not just to have a pop at SI and their advisors, but to say that you are alienating a significant proportion of your fan base.

Troels Jensen:

Default Re: New FM Live 1.2 Tactic system

@Swash

I know where you're coming from, and I'd like to comment on a few things.

First of all, I consider myself a casual player. Each game takes me 10 minutes at the most, from setting up the starting 11 to giving the post match team talk. I have never watched any games in full as I really don't see the need for it.

If someone tells the casual players to put up or get lost then of course that's wrong. Personally, I haven't read any posts suggesting that.

As for the 'we're trying to save the game' argument, it's hard for me to understand what needs saving. If a lot of people, including myself (I have a job and girlfriend to spend time on as well) can manage to do well in this game, you could too. FM08 was harder for me than FM09.

What I'm trying to say is that, for me anyway, there's no need for excessive micro management, full detail games or changing tactics every 2 minutes depending on what the AI does. And I do not consider myself particularly good at this game.

nitpin85: Swash is 100% right!! it does seem to me that SI seem to be bending over backwards to please the in depth boys and basically stick two fingers up at the casual player, i personally see 08 as an easier game compared to 09. SI need to bring it back a level for a casual player, but if there are not going to then they need to get the assistant manager to give more information then just "there a big gap between forwards and midfield". The simple rule about developing software, is that you shouldn't need a degree to be able to perform a simple task, it seems like to me you need to go to warwick uni and go there coaching course just to understand how to use tactic.

irt3hown: Troels you are using Real Madrid. Start a new game with West Ham or a lower quality team and see how you fair.

Millie: [quote]Not sure if it matters, but I've made a very successful tactic that is not at all based on the TTFs. In other words - it's possible to do well without following WWFans writings.[/quote]

And that's why we want the system to accomodate you. If you can do well without TT&F, then good. The fact that people play in many different ways is a good thing.

I feel like I'm walking into the lion's den here. So be gentle with me. I'm leaving any weapons I have at the door, and edging slowly towards you, arms raised.

First: the new wizard helps translate the sliders in to English. That's all it does. The rest is down to you.

Two: I've see time mentioned. Well. This SAVES time. Want to go more defensive? Use the "shout instruction" feature from the match screen (no need to go into tactics) and select "play more defensive". No need for fiddling around. Just a need to react to what's happening. Even on "commentary only", I'm sure that's possible. And there's plenty more you can shout from the sidelines.

Three: This will eliminate the need for a 50-page TT&F document. So, Richard and I will no longer be able to come on these forums and "boast" about how good we are. We'll be made redundant. Our power defeated. Which is good news for all, it seems.

Four: The wizard is only phase one. The second phase is to get a more realistic ME coming your way, with features that work more like they're supposed to, English names for English concepts, and hopefully the creases will be ironed out.

Five: To return to time - if you don't like the sliders, you no longer need to use them. Everything is done via your instructions -in English.

Six: There is still a through beta testing process needed for both FML and FM10, into which are many testers who are either hostile, indifferent or have never even seen TT&F. Their input will largely determine where this project goes, since SI still need to sell the game at the end of the day. If they hate it, this is gone.

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Now the point I really want to address. If the game is now based in English (if you want it to be). If it is now possible to make far reaching changes in a couple of clicks, saving time. If you can shout out instructions like a real manager. And if this is all backed up with a more realistic ME. Then what's the beef here?

We were asked to help develop a system that spoke in English to the users. A system which would simplify tactics and allow people to make changes quicker and easier without the need for silly fiddling around with sliders. Which is a DIRECT response to people like those here who have bemoaned the state of the game.

Seriously. What is the problem?

I would have thought any system that made Richard and I redundant and made him **** off out of your lives would gain your approval?

Hammer1000: [quote]Now the point I really want to address. If the game is now based in English (if you want it to be). If it is now possible to make far reaching changes in a couple of clicks, saving time. If you can shout out instructions like a real manager. And if this is all backed up with a more realistic ME. Then what's the beef here?

We were asked to help develop a system that spoke in English to the users. A system which would simplify tactics and allow people to make changes quicker and easier without the need for silly fiddling around with sliders. Which is a DIRECT response to people like those here who have bemoaned the state of the game.

Seriously. What is the problem?

I would have thought any system that made Richard and I redundant and made him **** off out of your lives would gain your approval?[/quote]

Hey Millie, no time no speak, hope you are well?

As far as i can see mate there are still a couple of issues outstanding, not so much about the Tactical Wizard which may well be a great inclusion, but things like....